One of the posters had some very passionate and insightful comments and unfortunately, deleted them all. However, another poster, whom I have known for years, added his comments and quickly, so it seemed, took a very aggressive tone and asked some very direct questions, which I will respond to here...instead of on my friend's Facebook wall. So, here we go:
Comment 1: Ok let's start with. "the bible is a catholic book. We gave it to them (Protestants).". How does that work?
Doug (we'll call him Doug since that is his name), the Bible was put together by the Church Fathers. A "canon" was opened, the books were chosen and the "canon" closed, never to be reopened and has never been questioned. The New Testament in a King James version Bible is the same as one that I would use in my Catholic faith. It is the Old Testament that differs a bit. The books that were decided upon were chosen out of many books at the time. The four Gospels are not the only ones written, but they were decided upon by the council that opened and closed the canon. The New Testament canon was merely a process of formal recognition of already recognized scripture that was being used in the early Church, to defend against the various forms of Gnosticism and heresy that were starting to creep throughout the ever-expanding church.
To be able to truly accept this however, will necessitate a person to first accept the fact that "The Church" that is spoken about in history at the time of this canon, was the early Catholic Church. If you cannot, or will not accept the fact that the Catholic Church of today is the same church that Jesus Christ created then you will be unable to follow my logic. All other churches, Protestant, broke away from the Catholic Church...it is a historic FACT.
Continuing on, following this logic then can only lead you to see that if the Catholic Church in it's early years put the writings of the Church into the New Testament, then the Bible you open today, came from the Catholic Church. Not too hard to follow really. And, by the way, King James never did endorse the version of the Bible that bears his name today.
Comment 2: Then let's go to how you talk to a fictitious character that, according to your story, died 2000 years ago (where do you get that Mary is a supernatural being that has current communication with a deity. If your Mary could sway the opinion/action of a deity doesn't that make her a deity. Does that make a quadrinity?)
First of all, I am going to move past the "fictitious character" part of this comment since Christians accept the fact that Mary existed, which is what I am presuming Doug is arguing. And if it is Jesus Christ you are questioning the existence of, then I offer the same argument. How do I know Pocahontas existed? Because history books say so. Weren't you raised Lutheran, Doug? Enough said on this point.
No one is saying that Mary is a "supernatural being". She is one of the Saints and is in Heaven. Stay with me, Doug, as I am speaking as a Catholic so I am writing from my beliefs. She would obviously have a very special relationship with her son, would she not? So, though I can pray directly to Him, and I do, I can also pray to her for her assistance...her "intercession". So I ask her to pray for me as well, to assist me in my requests from her son, whether it be for good health, a successful job interview, etc. Here is the simplest way to put it. My son wanted to begin getting his allowance back. He wasn't sure how to approach me (Father/God) about it, so he asked my fiance' (Mother/Mary) to talk to me about it, to lay the groundwork, so to speak. He asked her to "intercede" for him on his behalf. Pretty simple idea, really. Does my fiance's ability to sway me (Father) make her a father? No, she is still the "mother".
The reason non-Catholics have such heartburn with how we view Mary is because they don't understand. We do not worship her, we honor her, we venerate her. Nowhere in the Church teachings or beliefs are we "required" to pray to her, to honor her or anything. Many people do because we believe in the power of her intercession. If you look at the prayer, "Hail Mary", you will see that the first half is from her visit to her cousin Elizabeth. The second half is where we ask her to "pray for us sinners", for her help.
Comment 3: Oh and you screwed up f*&?#*s (I PG-Rated the word) equate women clergy with pedophiles? Yeah let's discuss.
I don't know who the "screwed up f*&?#*s" are that he is referring to, but if he means ME, since I am the one who wrote in this string, allow me to clarify his error. First of all, I did not equate them with pedophiles and it is my reasoning that the reason the Vatican did so was to show the gravity of the problem. For a Bishop to ordain a female would be commiting a sin that is considered on the same level as that of pedophilia, that is what they are saying. In the eyes of the Church, as I understand it, that false ordination is that serious. As I wrote in a string on the same topic on my wall when discussing the "ordination" of these women...performing the duties of a Priest (under false ordination) is blasphemy. Unlike the protestant churches, our Priests are so much more than a speaker behind a pulpit. Our whole Mass is focused around the Eucharist...where we believe that the bread and wine ACTUALLY BECOMES the Body and Blood of Christ. Not a symbol, no pretending...the real thing. So, to not have the authority of the Church to conduct the Mass, you are against it and therefore shall be excommunicated. That is how grave this issue is considered by the Church.
To Doug and to anyone else who would like to have a serious discussion about what Catholics believe on any given topic, I am ready and willing to answer any and all questions about the Church to the best of my ability. If I don't know the answer or am not sure of it, I will find you the correct answer. So many Protestants have misconceptions about what Catholics believe because they have been misinformed. Who knows, maybe I too, will learn some more about my Faith.
Anyone who equates a woman's ability to serve a church with the abuse of children has no credibility. Your organization loses credibility everytime we hear about another coverup of systemic, endorsed child molesting. You know they would lock you up if you showed up in the ER and said you eat god on Sundays right? Your fiancee is alive and that is how she can talk to you about an allowance. Is Mary alive? If she is after 2000 years then she must be supernatural. Do you think all of the saints are hanging around in the sky with god? When do they start hanging out with god, at death or after they are "poofed like magic" into being saints. Your right about the "bible" it's all a bunch of different books that really don't say anything coherent.
ReplyDeleteOh, it was screwy fuckers. Not screwed up fuckers. You expect us to believe you are such a catholic history expert but you mess up a simple two word quote from this morning.
ReplyDeleteWhere does it say, in the bible or anywhere else for that matter, that it is a sin to say "fuckers".
ReplyDeleteDoug, I copied your comment verbatim...copy/paste brother, can't goof that up. And I see you deleted your comments AGAIN, I guess in order to hide the proof of what you said. You are a coward. You make your statements, then run and hide. I am sure your parents would be proud of you.
ReplyDeleteAm I to assume then, that the educators of the world have no credibility with you either since they seem to systematically abuse our children too?
You have turned into a very jaded, hate-filled person. I noticed you did not argue any of the points I made. What is wrong, Doug? Unable to refute any of those facts except with childish comments? You know, Doug...I think I am glad you turned down my friend request, because I really don't like the person you turned into. I used to think you were a very intelligent, deep-thinking person. Man, was I wrong!
I have never claimed to be an expert on Catholicism. In fact, I learn more every day as I research and study my Faith more and more.
1) you told me to delete my posts in order to same the women folk from colorful language on facebook. 2) cite three news stories that show any educational system that had z program in place to relocate child molesters within it's system in order to allow them to continue offending and repeatedly refused to admit it's actions. 3) how does mary talk to jebus if she is not supernatural? You claim I am sidestepping your facts to attack you personally and them insult my parents? (I've never met them have you?).
ReplyDeleteJust curious, which of my comments were childish?
ReplyDeleteSo why do you think only men can perform the "poof" of transubstantiation? I think you said it's because the church says so. I'm curious, is a priest able to change bread into flesh solely based on a papal decree or is there a chapter on alchemy at the seminary or just what is going on there? Maybe it's the special bell.... If it is because a pope said they can then why can't a woman do it too. Is there something specific about a male that gives them the power? Or I'd it "cuz that's the way we always did it!".
ReplyDeleteStick with me Mark (ooh your right that is a nice trick to get people to like you so you can persuade them to do things you want them to do) I'm speaking from my background as a sane logical person. Yes or no? Would they lock you up if you went to the local emergency room and said, with all of your persecuted conviction, "I ate jesus last Sunday morning"?
ReplyDeleteYou have an a priori that I have to accept that the bible today was decreed by the roman church and that all other churches broke off from it. You do know the apostle mark founded the Coptic church right? How exactly did the "branch out" from you all?
ReplyDeleteSo were you wrong about me being intelligent or deep-thinking? Jaded? Undeniably. Hate filled? Towards those who defend child molesters, yes. Sorry I didn't live up to your notion of who you thought I was... Perhaps you should work on not assuming you know things you don't.
ReplyDeleteOops sorry about the screwy fuckers vs. screwed up fuckers misunderstanding. I meant to say screwy fuckers but I'm typing on an iPod touch and my fingernails are pretty long and so I have some typos. Your right, bro, I guess I did "screw" that up (see above foe example of how to admit you are not perfect...)
ReplyDelete1. I never told you to delete your posts, just said I would do my response here to save the space on Joni's page.
ReplyDelete2. Show proof that the Catholic Church has a "program" in place to relocate child molestors.
3. Mary was "assumed" into Heave, does that make her supernatural? Perhaps that is the correct term for her. Works for me.
4. I found your approach to comments childish.
5. The Bible along with Church teachings and tradition is where we get transubstantiation. A bit surprised you know the term, many don't...even Catholics. We base our Faith on the Teachings of the Church, the Bible, and Tradition. Those three things frame the Catholic faith.
6. I am heading over to the hospital in a few minutes, would you like me to stop in the ER and tell them I ate and drank the body and blood of Jesus Christ this past Sunday and I will do so again on this coming Sunday? Or would you rather I went into the mental health clinic and told them? I don't think it will phase them.
7. Deep thinker? perhaps, but close-minded. And let me make one thing perfectly clear. I do NOT defend child molestors, they should rot in jail...even if they are priests. Our church has gone through some trials because of this stain and I do not deny it happened or continues to happen. What I do not like, Doug, is how society is so ready to condemn our church, but so easily accepting of teachers, doctors, or clergy from other religions molesting our children. The percentage of priest who commit this crime is small compared to the number of teachers who do so...do you defend them?
8. I did not know that about Saint Mark and the Coptic Church. Turns out it was one of the origianl 4 sees of Christianity, but has since broken away from the Catholic Church. I will have to research that one a bit more. Very interesting. Not real sure what your point was with that one.
P.S. Don't type on your IPod, hard to read.
Mr. Julius, so nice to have seen you on here. I thought you had banned all discussion with me since you do not agree with my viewpoints. Too bad you deleted all of your commet. I was ready to answer your statements. Oh well, maybe another time. >My aggressiveness had two seeds. 1) you have posted hateful, bigoted information in the past and then pawned it off on "catholic" beliefs and hid behind "good enough for me" type statements like you have continued to do here. 2) I found your use of "Mr. Julius" and "Doug" to be snarky. You know I don't like what you stand for so the formal and the diminutive greetings and the comment about how you wished I had left my comments up were condescending at best, mocking at worst. Poke with a stick and then wonder why you get bit.
ReplyDeleteDoug (we'll call him Doug since that is his name). > My name, as you see it written in public forums is Douglas D Julius. Who are you to say tell me what my name is? Who are you to tell me how to post comments on a website? I am a Free Man. I do not bow my head before anyone. I do not clasp my hands in submission. I have a free mind. You will not tell me what to think, how to be addressed or how to voice myself.
ReplyDeleteContinuing on, following this logic then can only lead you to see that if the Catholic Church in it's early years put the writings of the Church into the New Testament, then the Bible you open today, came from the Catholic Church. Not too hard to follow really. > I call bullshit sir. Your bible is scraps gathered from hundreds of conflicting sources. By your answer, you are discounting the Old Testament and the Coptic Bible. There is no single copy of any gospel that exists that does not have conflicting copies in a number of languages. < If I do not accept that that rudolph the red nosed reindeer can fly does not mean your arguement is then valid. If you are going to engage the concept of "logic" then you have to understand the concept of a priori arguements. You can't just say <<3. Mary was "assumed" into Heave, does that make her supernatural? Perhaps that is the correct term for her. Works for me.>> and think that you are having a grown up, logical, intelligent conversation. You can't just say "good enough for me" and think you are making a rational point.
ReplyDeletenotice the "no lie" cut and paste above found you missing an "n" at the end of Heaven? don't make comment on my typing. I have long fingernails, what's your excuse?
ReplyDeleteAnd if it is Jesus Christ you are questioning the existence of, then I offer the same argument. How do I know Pocahontas existed? Because history books say so. Weren't you raised Lutheran, Doug? Enough said on this point.>> Most peculiar. You seem to assume that because I was raised Lutheran that I must accept the historical Jesus (not to mention the whole, is he the Christ spoken of in the Old Testament question). How does that connect? OK, I'm going to try this one more time: Name three historical documents that confirm the existence of a male named Jesus of Nazareth from the time frame in question. You are assuming. Know how that one works out? Again, don't tell me when I am satisfied. Explain yourself.
ReplyDeleteNo one is saying that Mary is a "supernatural being". She is one of the Saints and is in Heaven.>> Are human beings in your Heaven now? The natural world I observe around me does not seem to have a documented location that matches the description of your Heaven. Would it not follow that anyone who is in this Heaven is somehow different than a regular human (I assume you call some people Saints based on a set of criteria that differenciates them from my neighbor and the paperboy). Again, just because somebody told you something doesn't make it a fact. It just means you are a blind follower.
ReplyDeleteFirst of all, I did not equate them with pedophiles and it is my reasoning that the reason the Vatican did so was to show the gravity of the problem. For a Bishop to ordain a female would be commiting a sin that is considered on the same level as that of pedophilia, that is what they are saying. In the eyes of the Church, as I understand it, that false ordination is that serious. >> I said: Anyone who equates a woman's ability to serve a church with the abuse of children has no credibility. Your organization loses credibility everytime we hear about another coverup of systemic, endorsed child molesting.>> So you deflected my statement (which was a request for information based on your statement" I am ready and willing to answer any and all questions about the Church to the best of my ability. If I don't know the answer or am not sure of it, I will find you the correct answer." by saying "Am I to assume then, that the educators of the world have no credibility with you either since they seem to systematically abuse our children too?" So then I deflected you by putting the responsiblity back on you by saying: " 2) cite three news stories that show any educational system that had z program in place to relocate child molesters within it's system in order to allow them to continue offending and repeatedly refused to admit it's actions." And you asked me to take responsibility with: "2. Show proof that the Catholic Church has a "program" in place to relocate child molestors." You can't answer can you? I think that's the bottom line here.
ReplyDeleteIn Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response[1]- Wikipedia.
ReplyDeleteOK, still with me? Here is a link to a news report: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/04/01/pope-paul-vi-may-have-bee_n_521284.html.
ReplyDeleteIf you read it, you will see that a guy told the pope that child molesters (I'm not going to use "pedophile" anymore. The "church" has made an industry of obfuscation and I think we lose the visceral impact when we translate to latin and lose the actual truth of what these guys have done) should be excommuicated. That pope and every other pope, cardinal, bishop and priest since decided that it would be better to give a child molester priest a vacation and then set them up in a new dig with new victims at hand.
They made it hard for victims to seek legal redress: ^ Vitello, Paul (June 4, 2009). "Bishop Avidly Opposes Bill Extending Time to File Child-Abuse Suits". New York Times.
In November 2009, the Irish Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse reported its findings in which it concluded that:
ReplyDelete"the Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State".
On 22 April 2010, a lawsuit was filed in the Milwaukee Federal Court by an anonymous "John Doe 16" against the Vatican and Pope Benedict XVI. According to a report by Nick Divito:
ReplyDelete(The) Plaintiff says he did not discover that defendants knew about sexual abuse at the school "until recently" because Ratzinger and others purposefully dragged their feet. "Defendant knew that there was a high probability that these clerics would sexually molest more children, but sought to protect itself from scandal, sought to keep its income stream going, at the peril of children."[136]Nick Divito (22 April 2010). "Illinois Man Sues Pope, Vatican in Alleged Sex Abuse Case". Courthouse News Service. Retrieved 25 April 2010.
Before the Boston Globe coverage of the sexual abuse scandal in the Boston archdiocese, handling of sexual abuse allegations was largely left up to the discretion of individual bishops. After the number of allegations exploded following the Globe's series of articles, the breadth and depth of the scandals became apparent in dioceses across the United States. The American bishops felt compelled to formulate a coordinated response at the episcopal conference level. Although the Vatican did not respond immediately to the series of articles published by the Boston Globe in 2002, it has been reported that Vatican officials were, in fact, monitoring the situation in the U.S. closely.[61] Over time, it became more apparent that the problem warranted greater Vatican involvement.
ReplyDeleteJohn L. Allen, Jr. characterized the reaction of the USCCB as calling for “swift, sure and final punishment for priests who are guilty of this kind of misconduct.” In contrast to this, Allen characterized the Vatican's primary concern as wanting to make sure “that everyone’s rights are respected, including the rights of accused clergy" and wanting to affirm that it is not acceptable to "remedy the injustice of sexual abuse with the injustice of railroading priests who may or may not be guilty.”[61]SCU Conference on the Crisis". Connections 4 (=4). December 2003.
Oh, and about the teacher thing. Drudge Report and Newsmax do not have the journalistic weight of the Boston Globe. You see when a priest does it they are using the fear of eternal damnation to ply their victim. There is a higher standard for priest because you tell me they can turn wine into blood. (Which for my money is harder than water into wine.) I made potstickers last night and when eating them hit a couple pieces of gristle.
ReplyDeleteI found YOUR approach to comments childish.
ReplyDeleteDouglas (and I remember calling you Doug in High School), I see that you and I will just trade jabs all day long. You still are a very intelligent guy, in my opinion too smart. Sometimes, you believe something from faith, and faith alone. I can't see the air I breath, but I know it is there because some scientist told me. I know you want to believe only those things you can prove scientifically, and you have that right.
ReplyDeleteI would ask you this favor. If you can quote Huffington Post as a journalistic source, then I can use Drudge Report.
You quoted several articles and facts about the Church that I have seen before and cannot necessarily deny. I never claimed my Church is perfect, but it is the best I can find and I love it.
I hope you and I can have other thoughtful debate without getting personal. My comment about your IPad was jokingly stated because you had made a comment about the difficulty of typing on it. It was not meant out of malice, I thought you still had your sence of humor. My lack of typing ability is because I type too fast and don't always proofread sufficiently.
We will never convince each other of anything here, so I must bow out and agree to disagree. Good day to you Douglas D. Julius.
Signed,
The Troll